Talk:Knowledge Base: Difference between revisions

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*Do away with peculiar titles such as "Category:Firefox".  Use English-language titles, not Wikipedia-speak.  Remember, you aren't writing this for geek editors, you're writing it for real users.
*Do away with peculiar titles such as "Category:Firefox".  Use English-language titles, not Wikipedia-speak.  Remember, you aren't writing this for geek editors, you're writing it for real users.


It might work, but it needs a lot of organization that isn't there.  As it is, I have to agree, it really is bloody awful, it's ridiculuously hard to find anything.  Remember, Granny has to start here when things go wrong.
It might work, but it needs a lot of organization that isn't there.  As it is, I have to agree, it really is bloody awful, it's ridiculuously hard to find anything.  Remember, Granny has to start here when things go wrong.--[[User:AnotherGuest.|AnotherGuest.]]





Revision as of 20:09, 15 August 2006

This talk page is not for support questions. If you have a question or an issue with any of the Mozilla products, use the forums.

This page is for discussion of the content, appearance and structure of the front page (=main page), which is called Knowledge Base. For discussion about the Knowledge Base resource in general, please visit Knowledge Base changes. Thanks! Please remember to sign your comments with ~~~~

Some sections that used to be here have been moved to Knowledge Base changes

Front page is locked

The front page is locked to prevent vandalism. If things need editing, post them here or leave a message on the Talk page of one of the sysops.

Minor changes required on front page

There should be links to Firefox FAQs and Thunderbird : FAQs.

Also, SeaMonkey is miscapitalized as Seamonkey.

Appearance of the Knowledge Base

By using the default wikimedia skin this wiki looks sadly unprofessional. By comparison with the beautifully designed MozillaZine header, the bottom part of the page seems to have simply being forced. Wikimedia has a gallery of user styles (most of them licensed as a free document) that serves as an example of how simple changes (like the color-schema) could give more life to this knowledge base. You want to be Mozillazine, not a wikipedia looking amateur wiki. Cheops might give you an idea of a warmer look for this page, and MiniMenu shows the wonderful possibilities the wiki has. --Avsa 20:18, 18 Apr 2005 (PDT)

Agreed, I'd love to see a better-looking style, but that depends on finding someone willing to implement it! --Mozcerize 01:01, 19 Apr 2005 (PDT)

Appearance of front page

I'm designing a layout that I think wil be easier for first-time browsers of this site. Please check my Userpage to see what I am doing Stex 07:20, 6 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Note that since the move to categories, there is no longer any distinction between Tips and FAQs. (Tips lists have been removed entirely.) --Mozcerize 11:53, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Discussion regarding a redesign of the front page was continued on the Knowledge Base changes page. Several designs were considered, including that introduced above. The new design chosen (utilising a table-like layout with small images to accompany each heading) was created by Filipp0s.
I think this new look is excellent! Very professional and pretty. FatJohn 06:13, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Content of front page

I think that the new content structure isn't a very good one. It's somewhat hard to find stuff. Even when I know that an article exists! Perhaps a topdown+bottomup approach would work? I mean the first link (of the currently 2 links under all products) could be a link to the product's categories and the second link could be to alphabetical list of all the product related articles? FatJohn 03:15, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, could you explain what you mean by an alphabetical list of all the product related articles? Do you mean (e.g.) a list of every single article in the Firefox category and its subcategories? If so, I don't think MediaWiki can produce such a thing, and it would be undesirable to manually maintain such a large list. (Currently, the category pages provide an alphabetical list of all articles at that level in the category but don't list articles in subcategories; personally I find this behaviour annoying. Also, we manually maintain a FAQ page for each product which is not linked to from the front page but which is linked to from the category page.
Secondly, could you give an example of when it was hard to find a specific article? I tried to lead the guy who commented in the #Overview pages (below) through such an example, but he never really gave a detailed explanation. What we really need is a walkthrough, i.e. a kind of "I wanted to do this, I expected to be able to click here then here, but in fact I was made to click here and search here..." explanation. This is the only way that we have of evaluating how the current setup works. Cheers! --Mozcerize 10:10, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi there! 1) Yes, that's what I meant, the big list. I agree it's annoying. 2) Say for example my article about uninstalling Firefox. I go to main page and as I think that uninstalling shouldn't be an issue, then it's probably under all firefox articles There I'd expect to find the article under U in either category, articles or subcategories. Personally I think that these categories and subcategories are a little confusing here, since it's not like there's 100s or articles under them(?) Just makes things more complex to me. (Actually the article seems to be located under Installation and update (Firefox) category. Stricly speaking it's really neither) Do you understand what I meant with the updown, downup approach? Does it make sense to you? (any and all of you) FatJohn 22:08, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi! Thanks for the specific example. However, I don't think that it shows the category system to be (inherently) confusing. To me, it just shows that articles are not ideally categorized at the moment. For example, either the existing category could be called "Installation, update and uninstallation" (which seems a bit long) or we could introduce a new category called "Uninstallation". I'd prefer the latter. There haven't been many changes to the category tree recently, but there's no reason why changes can't be made.
Your suggestion for top-down / bottom-up alternatives makes perfect sense, but I don't think think that there are just two alternatives here. The main methods of article discovery in the KB at the moment are: Category navigation; List of issues; Firefox FAQs; Search. I would like "complete alphabetical list" to be available too, but seeing as it can't be generated automatically I'd rather not have it at all than have a flawed manual list. How do you regard Firefox FAQs? Do you think it's a useful idea? Is it too long or too short? --Mozcerize 12:41, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Howdy! I think that the FAQ is excellent. And since this is the KB, it can only be too short. :) It's looking really good imho. --FatJohn 22:53, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

This page is OK, but organization is rotten one level down

Just click down one level lower. Try, for example, "All Firefox articles, arranged by subject". Unfortunately, it doesn't show all Firefox articles and they aren't arranged by subject! I'm not even sure you can reach all articles from there.

There are other problems too. Take, as an example, Category:Firefox. The whole organization structure is bloody awful. First, where do you start? With "Articles in Category Firefox", or with "Subcategories"? The titles of those two sections are confusing, and you're forked before you even start. Why are there almost as many categories (17) as articles (24), and what do the articles have to do with the categories have to do with the articles? (answer: probably nothing, but some of the titles could accidentally below in one or more categories) The heirarchy is fractured, and to make it worse, the titles are just a random sampling of subjects, with many gaps and omissions. And just what does the title "Category:Firefox" mean anyway?

Automatic sorting into categories might work if:

  • Everything were sorted neatly into proper subject headings (and not too many of them)
  • If you must have single articles that don't fit into categories, why are there so many of them?
  • If you must have single articles that don't fit into categories (and I don't see why this is necessary), at least differentiate somehow between single articles and subheadings.
  • Do away with peculiar titles such as "Category:Firefox". Use English-language titles, not Wikipedia-speak. Remember, you aren't writing this for geek editors, you're writing it for real users.

It might work, but it needs a lot of organization that isn't there. As it is, I have to agree, it really is bloody awful, it's ridiculuously hard to find anything. Remember, Granny has to start here when things go wrong.--AnotherGuest.


Also see discussion below: Overview pages.

Overview pages

As a new user to this site, but long term user of Firefox, it strikes me that it is difficult to find information. The first two links are just lists of categories, the next is the Firefox support page (can't edit that) and the final link is a more comprehensive overview page that gives an indication on where to go for the relevant information I am looking for. However, these are just links to external (mostly private?, but thanks all the same!) sites. Anyone fancy a more structured overview page, with more text explaining why you would follow a link? Joe1011010 22:46, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback; it is very welcome. It would be really useful if you could tell us precisely what information you were looking for, the route you took to try to locate it, any difficulties you experienced while following that route, and any alternative suggestions you have that would allow users to find this information more easily. Did the list of categories help you to narrow your search, or did they hinder it? --Mozcerize 10:31, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I think the biggest problem is not knowing what to look for. Try this suggestion for size User:Joe1011010/temp1. Joe1011010 20:43, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Without a specific example of the information which you are trying to find, it is hard to evaluate the ways in which the current approach succeeds or fails. The page you have created seems a bit like a partner to the Getting started with Thunderbird page. Such a page might well be a good idea. But don't forget that there's no point in the Knowledge Base trying to replace the official Mozilla Help pages at http://www.mozilla.org/support/firefox/; those offsite pages should be the first port of call for anyone who needs to be told what Firefox is, where to obtain themes and extensions, etc.
Specifics about your page: it seems a little odd to assume the user doesn't know what Firefox is in one sentence and then be telling them to use about:config in another. (Actually, users interested in manual configuration should be directed to Editing configuration rather than about:config.) Before you direct people to the forums, it would be better to encourage people to use the Knowledge Base for answers for specific questions (where they do know what they're trying to find). Is this what your implied link was meant for? --Mozcerize 22:37, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Several problems with the current approach, given that any skill level from basic 'I clicked on the link and installed Firefox - What now?' to 'I know everything there is to know about all programming technologies and languages' could be using this site and the official Mozilla Help pages and the Forums.... How do users know how skilled they need to be to try any of the activities given here?... I tried to find an answer to installing extensions globally, see http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=360439&highlight= but found the official information unclear, and the Forum a bit unspecific.... I cannot change the official information, although I did email the webmaster offering to submit more clear information before finding this site.... A search here for 'Global Extensions' does not show a clear enough answer. The problem with a search based approach is being able to put the 'correct' words in the search box to find the answer.... I have not yet installed Thunderbird and I like the 'Getting started...' page, although I see it is not linked directly from the main page.... My page is a bit light on specifics as I wrote it quickly as a suggested way of simplifying navigation, and as a way of showing that Official Pages, Knowledge Base and Forums are integrated (how many Forum pages reference the Knowledge Base?).... I hope this does not sound too negative - I don't mean it to be. Joe1011010 01:07, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
You don't sound too negative! This is a fruitful discussion. It sounds like your suggested page would be best presented as a "Where to find support" article. Although at heart it would be a copy of http://www.mozilla.org/support/firefox/, we could indeed explain how the different sources of support are related, and we could emphasise that that the official support site that I just mentioned should be used prior to using the KB. (Indeed, that page does state that the KB is "for more advanced questions".)
As for the level of knowledge required to try the KB activities, the current KB articles seem pretty gentle in the way they introduce new ideas such as application preferences, and they always include very strong warnings when an activity could potentially break a profile or the whole app. The "where to find support" article could make this clear.
As for the info about global extensions that you were seeking, I would expect that people would visit "All Firefox articles, arranged by subject" which takes them to the Firefox Category, and then visit the third subcategory in the list, Extensions (Firefox), and take a look at the articles listed. Sadly none of the titles have anything to do with installing extensions, let alone global installation—hence the info is not on the KB. :-( Incidentally, info about extension installation would make a great article; feel free to write it! :-P ) The search you did failed, yet the search term you used seems perfect to me, and would have worked had the info been available. As a new user to the KB, your thoughts on whether this was actually how you saw the mechanism working are very gratefully received.
--Mozcerize 11:52, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Use of categories

Right now, the MediaWiki:Categories page is protected and includes the exciting text "Categories" and only that. Alternatively, Special:Categories includes a grand total of 6 different categories, none of which include that categories on the main page. Superm401 12:30, 5 Feb 2005 (PST). As an example of what we could have, see Wikipedia:Browse by category. Note, I realize that this isn't aspiring to be Wikipedia, and it shouldn't be, but this could make the system much more organized. Superm401 12:30, 5 Feb 2005 (PST)

This looks promising. Any way to get categories to "embed" themselves into the front page? I want users to have a working table of contents with links to various places the moment they arrive at the front page. There's also the issue of whether or not a sysop can protect a category from inclusion, so that the sysop still has a tight rein on whether or not something appears to a user the first time he arrives here (like the protection we have on the front page right now to prevent links to any articles/links from being added).
The front page will probably have to be edited manually to point to categories; please discuss this on Talk:Rules and Talk:Rules/Categories. --asqueella

To me, the Search is (and should be) the strongest point in the whole 'Category' filing; and to me, the Category filing is a little confusing. To a common end user (which I believe could be considered a newbie), Google and a fast, strong search is what they would be used to. As you point out, if I were to arrive at a specific article and didn't know about the Category line at the bottom, I wouldn't know how to browse the Category's. Currently, the Main Page link takes you to the Main Page, but that has nothing to do with Categories, which is fine, for now. Although I don't believe the Categories page should be the Welcome page for new users. Just my two cents. I would like to see the Search button go higher in the page, right under the Main Page link. --Marc 09:22, 22 October 2005 (PDT)

Thanks for your thoughts on this! I agree entirely that a decent search interface should be a priority, and it should be displayed far more prominantly. --Mozcerize 10:09, 22 October 2005 (PDT)
Tentative try. --shadytrees

Some sections have been moved to Knowledge Base changes