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Question i cant hold: if one "groks" an acronym, why should one not want to "keep" it ? luber 22:17, 11 Jul 2004 (PDT)

I see your point. Hmm. What "Keep" was supposed to deal with was this: assuming you understand a point being made, is it really worth making that point? It used to be "Like" rather than "Keep". But if one groks a point, one probably thinks it ought to be made. So it boils down to this. Assuming you now grok why I also have a separate "Keep", do you think I should keep it. ;) raiph 10:09, 12 Jul 2004 (PDT)

Let me assume i "Fancy an AIRBAG for (my) Network (destination) Safety" (FANS), where AIRBAG stands for
A - Acquiring and
I - Integrating
R - "R" factors: Relations / Resources / Returns / Risk Recovery ...
B - for Business
A - enAbled
G - to manaGe them
and which ... dont mean a thing if it aint got that swing (Duke Ellington)
exactly like this false start for a net based business strategy ....

Now, if the verb "grok" means what I have been told, "i grok" the above ... even if i'm the only living being who does ...

and that means i cannot say "i keep" the above ... because it does not match with anything in existence i can think of ....

If I was stoned enough I reckon I'd grok that. Maybe. Perhaps because I'm contrarian, I like it (due to its perverse "aint got that swing" swing). Anyhow, I'm gonna add it to the table, with Groks set to 1 (you said you think you grok it) and Keeps set to 1 (you don't think you can say to keep it, but I do). :) raiph 09:41, 13 Jul 2004 (PDT)

My "Grok it" vs "Keep it" interpretation then is:

• "Grok it" means to have expectations about it and what it could lead to ...
• "Keep it" means it's there already and one would hate to see it phasing out ...

luber 00:42, 13 Jul 2004 (PDT)

To do the above unordered list i have now replaced html code with '*', after raiph's kind reminder. luber 23:45, 14 Jul 2004 (PDT)

To me to grok means to have a holistic, non-linear, right brained, intuitive understanding, not a reductionist, linear, left brained, thinking understanding. Which might be similar to your grokking of grok, or it might not... To "keep it" in the context of the acronym table is about whether keeping it makes FANS more fun/grokkable overall, or just more complicated for so many that it's fun or grok benefits for the few who do grok it or find it fun aren't worth it. Note that I can take fun more seriously than anyone else I know. raiph 09:41, 13 Jul 2004 (PDT)

My grokking of grok started when its meaning (as you describe it) could not make anybody else feel actioned to change the so called "common practice" - in all cultural contexts/environments i have been "prodding" so far - . This situation (hopefully) may now start evolving towards a new reality, where "grokker" initiated endeavours may get the blessings of some "keeper" protected reality/practice/culture. If this makes sense, I wonder, could it be adding another dimension to the acronym table? Something like a measure of FANS success in terms of decreased resistance to change ?? luber 23:45, 14 Jul 2004 (PDT)

Er, you're copying my use of indented paras, italics, etc. The idea of doing that is to distinguish one author from another at a glance!

Gosh, my use of Keep was unrelated to where you're going with it. It just meant, "is this something we want to mention?". You seem to be using "keep" to mean resistance-to-change, and "grok" to mean deep understanding that should be a welcomed foundation for positing change. Interesting, but not at all what I had intended. Anyhow, it's clearly all too complicated. So I've scrapped the Keep column. ;) raiph 09:39, 15 Jul 2004 (PDT)

I was trying to agree on a pattern ... and learning by doing ... with thanks to you

about groks vs keeps: maybe i was looking for a (protocol?) negotiation ... between groks and keeps ... achieving a balance ?? agreeing on a way ahead with people who speak a different language ?? (cybernetics maybe ... i don't speak cybernetics ...) -- luber 22:11, 15 Jul 2004 (PDT)

I don't think that cybernetic is a language but more a representation of reality, a kind of structure where elements which compose language can interact to produce communication in a way which focused on capacity of feedback. SylvieBourguet 04:57, 16 Jul 2004 (PDT)

That's something like saying you don't think life is a person. In my worldview, language is a metasystem transition, which is a cybernetic phenomenon. raiph 12:33, 16 Jul 2004 (PDT)

to me this sounds like a diversion from where i'd like to go (what i'd like to achieve)
which is related to the establishment of cross cultural communication, in the sense described by Peter Small's article on A Biomimetics approach to cross culture communication
and it's motivated by my wanting to be and to behave as a user of open sourcing - not as a developer or as a marketing person;
that's why i don't speak (about) cybernetics ... same as i don't speak (about) Ferrari or fiat 500 engines;
perhaps SylvieBourguet and myself are going to start an annotated multilingual presentation of Peter Small's article on the Blogalization Nation website
to highlight the possible links with what we are talking about right here ? luber 22:21, 16 Jul 2004 (PDT)

Post Scriptum - a side effect of the initiative i'm suggesting would be to demonstrate the role wikis may take up towards the achievement of cross cultural communication (see Wiki As You Learn)

I'm agree language "is a cybernetic phenomenon", language functions on a system (semiotic triangle) based on the cybernetic model which is a science based on control of system. As a lot of human activities cybernetic use language that's what I said Cybernetic is not a language. But I 'm not an expert I just try to exprim how I uderstand some concepts it's a way to have feeback to actualize in return my own comprehension maybe above the subject of the discussion it's a way to have more comprehension about my own position in a relational context :-) SylvieBourguet 06:04, 17 Jul 2004 (PDT)

This conversation clearly belongs somewhere other than this wiki. You guys have given several links, and I've followed some and left links elsewhere then not gotten email notification of changes / not followed up / forgotten where they were. Please pick the most suitable one place and I'll go there. Thanks. raiph 11:40, 17 Jul 2004 (PDT)